Santana

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:09 am

NY Daily News- Yankees may give up on Johan Santana

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/01/10/2008-01-10_yankees_may_give_up_on_johan_santana-2.html

Brian Cashman has remained protective of the Yankees' assembled prospects, while Hal Steinbrenner has been equally shielding of the team's finances.

Hank Steinbrenner? That's been another story for much of the winter.

But while stressing there is "absolutely nothing new" in terms of recent trade discussions with the Twins, Hank is beginning to sound convinced - if not nearly ready - to walk away from any potential blockbuster deal for Johan Santana.

"We went into this with me making the final baseball decisions and Hal more addressing the financial aspects of the company, but we both do everything," Steinbrenner said yesterday in a phone interview. "We're equal partners, but at this point, to tell you the truth, I'm leaning away from it anyway, so it doesn't matter. Same thing with Brian, he's another integral part of it, obviously, being the general manager, and one day he's leaning to do it and the next day he's not sure.

"But what it comes down to right now is giving up a lot (in a trade) and then having to do the big contract, as well. If (Santana) was just a free agent, we could just go ahead and do it. There's a big difference this way. We have to sign him as if he's a free agent, plus you have to give up major talent. That's a tall order."

The Yanks and Twins had discussed a deal that would have sent frontline pitching prospect Phil Hughes, outfielder Melky Cabrera and two mid-level prospects to Minnesota for Santana, a two-time Cy Young winner who reportedly will seek a seven-year extension worth around $140 million.

"I don't know what he'd even want, or what they'd settle for. I don't know. We obviously haven't talked to him or his agent, so I have no idea," Steinbrenner said. "But a six- or seven-year extension, no, I wouldn't do that."

Steinbrenner added that opinions offered by several unspecified Yankees "during the course of conversation" in recent weeks have contributed to his change of heart.

"I'm growing more and more comfortable with what we have, and the veteran players I've talked to seem to be pretty comfortable with what we have. But we'll see what happens," said Steinbrenner, who reiterated that the plan is to shift Joba Chamberlain into the starting rotation. "I'm hoping we'll be set to go (to spring training).

"The big thing, as far as questions, is the bullpen and we'll see how that shakes out, but at this point, I want Chamberlain as a starter and not using someone of his ability in a setup role. We did that last year, but that was different. He was a rookie. But you don't do that.

"Setup guys are important, extremely important, but you have a guy of that ability, who our baseball people think either can be a top starting pitcher or a top closer. It's going to be up to Brian to plug that hole in the bullpen, if there is one, if we're not going to get Santana."



ROGER THAT: Asked for his opinion on Roger Clemens' "60 Minutes" appearance and press conference this week, Steinbrenner replied: "I don't really have a take. Like I've said before, only Roger knows whether he's telling the truth or not. There's always plenty of time for telling the truth. Again, I don't believe in a rush to judgment. You're not supposed to do that in this country, but everyone does. I don't, but unfortunately it seems the majority of the country does. That's not what this country was built on."

Steinbrenner also backed up Joe Torre's recent categorization of the Mitchell Report as skewed against the Yankees and Mets because much of the testimony came from ex-Yankee employee Brian McNamee and former Mets clubhouse attendant Kirk Radomski.

"That's the thing that bothered me, as much as it bothered Joe. He was the first to come out and say that, because it was his team, too," Steinbrenner said. "The report was lopsided and it's obvious why. It just happened to be the two witnesses they found."

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:11 am

NY Daily News- Yankees may give up on Johan Santana

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/01/10/2008-01-10_yankees_may_give_up_on_johan_santana-2.html

But while stressing there is "absolutely nothing new" in terms of recent trade discussions with the Twins, Hank is beginning to sound convinced - if not nearly ready - to walk away from any potential blockbuster deal for Johan Santana.

"We went into this with me making the final baseball decisions and Hal more addressing the financial aspects of the company, but we both do everything," Steinbrenner said yesterday in a phone interview. "We're equal partners, but at this point, to tell you the truth, I'm leaning away from it anyway, so it doesn't matter. Same thing with Brian, he's another integral part of it, obviously, being the general manager, and one day he's leaning to do it and the next day he's not sure.

"I don't know what he'd even want, or what they'd settle for. I don't know. We obviously haven't talked to him or his agent, so I have no idea," Steinbrenner said. "But a six- or seven-year extension, no, I wouldn't do that."

I'm growing more and more comfortable with what we have, and the veteran players I've talked to seem to be pretty comfortable with what we have. But we'll see what happens," said Steinbrenner, who reiterated that the plan is to shift Joba Chamberlain into the starting rotation. "I'm hoping we'll be set to go (to spring training).

"The big thing, as far as questions, is the bullpen and we'll see how that shakes out, but at this point, I want Chamberlain as a starter and not using someone of his ability in a setup role. We did that last year, but that was different. He was a rookie. But you don't do that.

"Setup guys are important, extremely important, but you have a guy of that ability, who our baseball people think either can be a top starting pitcher or a top closer. It's going to be up to Brian to plug that hole in the bullpen, if there is one, if we're not going to get Santana."


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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:21 am

NY Daily News- Yankees may give up on Johan Santana

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2008/01/10/2008-01-10_yankees_may_give_up_on_johan_santana-2.html

But while stressing there is "absolutely nothing new" in terms of recent trade discussions with the Twins, Hank is beginning to sound convinced - if not nearly ready - to walk away from any potential blockbuster deal for Johan Santana.

We went into this with me making the final baseball decisions and Hal more addressing the financial aspects of the company, but we both do everything," Steinbrenner said yesterday in a phone interview. "We're equal partners, but at this point, to tell you the truth, I'm leaning away from it anyway, so it doesn't matter. Same thing with Brian, he's another integral part of it, obviously, being the general manager, and one day he's leaning to do it and the next day he's not sure.

I don't know what he'd even want, or what they'd settle for. I don't know. We obviously haven't talked to him or his agent, so I have no idea," Steinbrenner said. "But a six- or seven-year extension, no, I wouldn't do that.

]I'm growing more and more comfortable with what we have, and the veteran players I've talked to seem to be pretty comfortable with what we have. But we'll see what happens," said Steinbrenner, who reiterated that the plan is to shift Joba Chamberlain into the starting rotation. "I'm hoping we'll be set to go (to spring training).

"The big thing, as far as questions, is the bullpen and we'll see how that shakes out, but at this point, I want Chamberlain as a starter and not using someone of his ability in a setup role. We did that last year, but that was different. He was a rookie. But you don't do that.

"Setup guys are important, extremely important, but you have a guy of that ability, who our baseball people think either can be a top starting pitcher or a top closer. It's going to be up to Brian to plug that hole in the bullpen, if there is one, if we're not going to get Santana."

There you have it, Santana will be a Met. As a Yankee Fan, I'm Happy as long He doesn't goes to Redsox.. Hey Matt,Please beat The Redsox and win the WS? Can You Promise to beat Redsox If Mets trade for Johan? Thanks


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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:25 am

Way to go Hank!! Leave Santana right where he is. If the Twins were going to deal this guy they would have taken either the Yankee deal or the red sox deal. Sox will not buy this either,too much money, too much to give up. Also correct in his position on the steroids and the Roger matter. This guy makes sense. Yankees and mets took the hit as Mitchell was ready to come up with a report to jusify what he was getting money to do. No oath, no subpoena and we got a fig leaf provided by the commissioner with help from the Board Member of a team who has no problems at all!! Amazing!! Notice how a "small market owner" (the commissioner) had all he needed to feed to the public. Two rich teams from the biggest market got slammed. I ask who can survive this better than these two teams? You keep believing this garbage and you are playing into the hands of those who knew and looked the other way.

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:26 am

Johan Santana-S-Twins Jan. 10 - 12:00 am et

http://rotoworld.com/content/home_MLB.aspx

The Star Tribune's Joe Christensen believes the Twins would send Johan Santana to the Mets if New York added Fernando Martinez to its current offer of Carlos Gomez, Deolis Guerra, Phil Humber and Kevin Mulvey.
If Christensen has the players exactly right, that'd qualify as new news. However, it's been assumed for a while now that the hold up with the Mets is that the Twins want both outfielders, while the Mets are only willing to part with one. The Mets are right to stand pat with the current offer. Four quality prospects for Santana is sufficient. Adding Martinez, even if he replaced one of the pitchers, is too high of a price to pay.
Source: Minneapolis Star Tribune
Related: Carlos Gomez

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:27 am

Erik Bedard-S-Orioles Jan. 9 - 10:25 pm et

http://rotoworld.com/content/home_MLB.aspx

FOXSports.com's Ken Rosenthal believes that an Erik Bedard-to-Seattle trade is closer to completion.
Sources told Rosenthal that the two sides are still differing on one player of the deal. Rosenthal says nothing about Jeff Clement in his newest report, instead mentioning right-hander Chris Tillman, top shortstop prospect Carlos Triunfel and reliever George Sherrill as possibility to be moved along with Adam Jones. Jones is almost surely a lock to be in the deal. We assume two of the other three would go. If the Orioles have a chance to get Triunfel, they need to pull the trigger.
Source: FOXSports.com
Related: Adam Jones, Jeff Clement, George Sherrill

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:28 am

Bedard to Mariners getting closer

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7656588


Erik Bedard to the Mariners? Mike Cameron to the Brewers? Luis Gonzalez to the Marlins?

All three scenarios are in play, though the trade talks involving Bedard are fluid and Cameron is drawing interest from at least two other teams.

The latest:


# Bedard: A trade between the Orioles and Mariners is only one player away from completion, major-league sources say, but that one player could be right-hander Chris Tillman, a 19-year-old that the M's would prefer to retain.

Outfielder Adam Jones would be the centerpiece of the deal for the Orioles, and left-handed reliever George Sherrill and 17-year-old shortstop Carlos Triunfel are among the other players under discussion.

The Mariners also have inquired about A's right-hander Joe Blanton, but the A's would insist upon Jones and the Mariners might not be willing to trade their top position prospect within the division.

# Cameron: The Brewers are expressing serious interest in the free-agent center fielder, sources say, though they would prefer a left-handed hitter and would face a delicate situation if they asked Bill Hall to return to the infield.

The signing of Cameron would trigger the shift of Hall to third base and Ryan Braun to left field, improving the Brewers defensively. However, the Brewers assured Hall that his move from shortstop to center last season would not simply be for one year.

Hall, 28, and catcher Jason Kendall, 33, are the Brewers' only regulars over 25. The signing of Cameron would provide another veteran presence but also add another high-strikeout hitter to the team's lineup.

Cameron struck out 160 times for the Padres last season, the fourth highest total in the National League, while batting .242 with 21 homers and 78 RBIs. Five of the Brewers' eight returning regulars struck out 99 or more times, yet the team finished fifth in the NL in runs.

# Gonzalez: The Marlins, envisioning the five-time All-Star as a veteran mentor who would play both left field and first base, are expected to resume discussions with the free agent's representatives on Thursday.

Gonzalez, 40, also is drawing consideration from the Brewers, and could fit in with the Mariners if Seattle trades Jones. While Gonzalez might prefer to sign with a contender rather than the Marlins, he also considers playing time a priority.

After finishing last season with 2,502 hits, Gonzalez could approach 3,000 if he continues producing into his mid-40s. The milestone — an unofficial standard for the Hall of Fame — is a longshot. Gonzalez, however, believes he can contribute in a more meaningful way than he did for the Dodgers last season.

After signing with the Dodgers as a free agent, Gonzalez appeared in 139 games, his second-lowest total since 1995. He batted .278 with 15 homers and 68 RBIs.

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:34 am

Bedard to Mariners getting closer


http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7656588


# Bedard: A trade between the Orioles and Mariners is only one player away from completion, major-league sources say, but that one player could be right-hander Chris Tillman, a 19-year-old that the M's would prefer to retain.

Outfielder Adam Jones would be the centerpiece of the deal for the Orioles, and left-handed reliever George Sherrill and 17-year-old shortstop Carlos Triunfel are among the other players under discussion.

The Mariners also have inquired about A's right-hander Joe Blanton, but the A's would insist upon Jones and the Mariners might not be willing to trade their top position prospect within the division.

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Why do you hate the Yankees?

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:35 am


Why do you hate the Yankees?

The two main reasons people use to hate the Yankees is

1. Finance, Money, etc..

2. Arrogance, Corporate, etc...

To touch on Number 2 for a second. We crucify players like Manny for acting a fool. Ridiculous hair style, and off the field antics. We criticize managers like Ozzie for not knowing when to keep his mouth shut. The Yankees try to keep it a little more clean, more appropriate. No facial hair, clean uniforms, no staring at Homerun balls from Home plate for half an hour.... Im not sure I understand what is so bad about this. Sometimes I see it like that guy who has it all from looks to charm, EVERYTHING.... you hate him, but you dont know why.

Now, about the money. First of all, the Yankees are not doing anything illegal. They are simply using their resources to improve a product they have to present to a client. Anyone who has the most minimal knowledge of how to run a business can understand and APPRECIATE what the Yankees are doing. Let's be real, alot of owners pocket the money.

A quick breakdown of what the Yankees spend on Payroll. Let's see how much of it justifies this worldwide hatred for them...

Currently, the Yankees are sporting a payroll of about $195 Million dollars. Im going to break down only the Million dollar contracts.

Before I explain this, I would like to add that Rookie Free Agents could and should qualify as a homegrown talent.... Guys like Santana, Reyes, Dice K were all rookie free agents with their respective teams at one point. Noone is talking about how "wrong" it is to go after Fukudome....an established STAR in Japan.

Yankee Farm System and/or Rookie Free Agents

Derek Jeter - $21,600,000
Andy Pettite - $16,000,000
Hideki Matsui - $13,000,000
Jorge Posada - $12,000,000
Mariano Rivera - $10,500,000
Kei Igawa - $4,000,000

That's $76,600,000 spent on Homegrown and/or Rookie Free Agents. That's about 39% of the Yankees Payroll.

The ORIGINAL contract given to Alex Rodriguez was by the Rangers. For the Yankees to acquire A Rod, they needed to trade Soriano, another Rookie Free Agent. Our scouting doesn't get enough credit. Anyway, we currently upped that contract to baseball's best player to $275 Million.... This year, he'll make about $27,700,000. The road to New York for A Rod was not NY "stealing" a player or playing dirty. In 2001 he was granted Free Agency from Seattle... The Rangers locked him up for a HUGE contract. Realizing he put too much money into ONE player, not allowing him to focus on the REAL issue (pitching), Hicks decided to unload a good amount of that contract on the Yankees.

So, $27,000,000 goes to A Rod, about 14% of the Payroll... So between Homegrown players and A Rod... that's about 53% of the Payroll..

Jason Giambi was coming off an MVP season when signed. It was a smart business move to put a guy of his caliber at First to try and fill in Tino's shoes. Carl Pavano was coming off an 18 Win Season in Florida. Wasn't anything special prior to that year, and the Yankees took a chance on him. MIke Mussina was a good pitcher for the Orioles. Ironically, when the Yankees signed him he was 32, coming off his worst win/loss season as a Regular Starter. 11 - 15 with a 3.79 ERA... His 3rd highest ERA up to that point. Aging star coming off his worst season as a regular...... Kinda risky if you ask me.

Giambi is set to make about $23 Million, Mussina is going to make about $11 Million, while Pavano is going to make $10 Million. $44 Million between 3 TIMELY, SMART acquisition made by the Yankees (when they were made, ofcourse). That's $44 Million of 195...is about 23%.... bring the total up to 76% of the payroll.

Bobby Abreu was laughed at when signed, along with the late Corey Lidle. The Yankees gave up 4 prospects to acquire Abreu and Lidle. I remember the buzz was that the Yankees traded for an OVER rated guy with a good arm and decent pop. Farnsworth was/is nothing special. Latroy Hawkins is the latest guy added to try and stop the Bullpen woes... Good luck. Abreu is set to make about $15,600,000. Farnsworth about $5,700,000 and Hakwins about $3,300,000... That's about $24.6 Million in guys everyone laughed at. Not that they are doing anything special. That's about 13% of the Payroll... We are at 89%.

Then Johnny Damon. I liked the signing at first. Young guy who murdered us in the playoffs in '04. Boston could've had him but refused to throw in the extra year, so they settled for the guy who is warming up Ellsbury's spot...if not traded. $13 Million for Damon. That's about .07% of the payroll....

90% of the payroll broken down for the ones that hate the Yankees. It's a business. The Yankees have more resources because.......of their resources. They are not doing anyting illegal and/or immoral. Simply trying

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:37 am

the reason red sox fans use to hate the yankees is because they loathed them for being successful.

with two world series, you think this would of made the masses happy, like myself...sadly, i think it's created an overrun of "fentards" that hopped on the bandwagon and think 'hating' the yankees is still the cool thing to do.

there is no reason for red sox fans to 'hate' the yankees anymore.


Here's the deal,...as seen thru my eyes,I've watched these clubs for over 30 years now. What I see is these 2 teams don't actually 'hate' each other per se-they're actually afraid of each other getting an upperhand. In sports this is called a bitter rivalry. So,the fans of the 2 take it upon themselves to validate why their club is the best. Nothing wrong with that. They've both had spectacular histories,the Yanks have the 26 titles,while the Red Sox have the 2 most recent between them. But any year,it's never to be taken for granted by either one that they are going to outfinish the other,it just hasn't been happening like that. Where the Red Sox won the WS last year,what makes anyone think the Yankees couldn't be the one to win it this year? or why couldn't it be neither? the point is,these 2 are ALWAYS in contention. Contenders come and go,these 2 outlast them all,decade to decade. They stand the test of time better than any 2 baseball franchises as contenders...Yep,this is indeed the most contested rivalry in all sports....The AL EAST

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http://www.nypost.com/seven/01102008/sports/yankees/lane_might_join_yanks_at_1st_base_827724.htm

January 10, 2008 -- Just in case Jason GiambiJason Giambi , Shelley DuncanShelley Duncan and Wilson BetemitWilson Betemit aren't enough at first base heading to spring training, the Yankees have interest in adding free agent Jason Lane, according to a source.

Lane, 31, was not tendered a contract by the Padres after hitting .178 with eight homers and 27 RBIs last season. He began last year with Houston and went to San Diego in a September trade.

Though Lane is a career outfielder, the Yankees believe he would be a quick study at first base, where he has appeared in four games during his six-year major league career.

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:39 am

Scout's analysis process

http://bronxbanter.baseballtoaster.com/



Here's a good article from Bronx Banter on the debate betwen scientific and non scientific analysis.

Jim McLaughlin, the first scouting director for the Baltimore Orioles (he later ran the scouting operations for the Cincinnati Reds), believed in a scientific approach to scouting way back in the '50s. McLaughlin devised a chart called "The Whole Ball Player." The chart consisted of a cirlce that was split in two. The top half of the chart reads:

Can Be Seen with Eye

Pitcher: arm strength, fast ball, curve ball, slider, other pitch, control

Infieder-Outfielder: arm strength, use of arm, speed, hands, fielding, range, hitting, power

Catcher: arm strength, use of arm, hands, receiving, hitting, power, speed

General for all Players: stamina, durability, anticipation, hustle, reflexes, size, coordination, agility, poise, instinct base running, eyesight

The bottom of the chart reads:

Can Not Be Seen with Eye

Attitude: desire, drive, willingness, hunger ambition, aggressiveness

Mental: intelligence, baseball sense, teachability, knowledge of game

Personality: improvement, consistency, maturity, adjustment, stability, temperament, disposition

Winner: stomach, heart, competitiveness, pride, confidence

Background: family, habit.

McLaughlin is featured in Kevin Kerrane's wonderful book about scouting, Dollar Sign on the Muscle:

"When Fred Hoffman scouted Brooks Robinson, he saw the whole ballplayer. Brooks was just an average runner, he didn't have a great arm, his frame was still kind of frail, his hitting was still a question mark, and he was playing second base. But Fred visualized him as a third baseman. He said, 'This boy's quick even though he's not fast, and he's gonna be just like a vacuum cleaner in the infield.' Fred saw the soft hands, the live body, the great reflexes that allow you to project hitters. He was able to break the player down into individual tools, and he was also able to see the masterpiece in its entirety. Not just the total coordination in that body, but the total coordination in that person-beyond what could be seen with the eye.

"...I think I went a lot further than other people in taking the scientific viewpoint on acquiring talent. And that's another reason I wasn't a real baseball man. Baseball men are like a tribe. And if you don't think they way the tribe thinks, if you think on your own and ignore the conventional wisdom, then you spend half your time bucking complaints from scouts who say, 'That's not the way I learned it,' or 'You never played a day of pro baseball in your life.'

"I used to hear scouts talk about 'the good face'-as if they could tell about a kids' makeup just by looking at him, instead of taking the trouble to get to know him, or studying the results of a psychological test. I used to hear those 'good face' stories and they'd drive me up the wall. Scouts can be so damn unscientific! At one time it was the conventional wisdom that a black kid couldn't become a successful big-league pitcher, because he wouldn't have any guts when he walked out to the mound, because he'd be only sixty feet, six inches from home plate. There was no basis for that. It was just prejudice-or fantasy, or myth, or whatever you want to call it. I was the scouting director and I had to listen to this bullshit. I said, 'I don't' have the time to reeducate you guys diplomatically.' I was dictatorial. I was opinionated. I said, 'This is the way it's gonna be.' I wanted to inculcate basic principles, like with that chart. I wanted rationality. I wanted science.

McLaughlin wanted his scouts to be more than just baseball men. He ran seminars with guest speakers ranging from psychologists to F.B.I. agents to insurance salesmen. He staged mock-drafts and began employing cross-checkers in 1955, ten years before the draft.

"In one way all of that was picking up where Branch Rickey left off...even though I never liked Rickey. I thought he was an ethical fraud, the way he manipulated people and then made those pious speeches. There was no substance. I couldn't have worked for him two minutes, because of my Jesuit education. I could see through him. But when it came to producing talent, the man had real intelligence, real imagination, because he could change his thinking-like a good novelist who doesn't just keep repeating himself after the first novel. And near the end of his career, he was ready for scientific scouting.

"Up to that time, see, Rickey was a Darwinist. 'Quality out of quantity' is really a version of natural selection. The other baseball men didn't even know who the hell Darwin was, so Rickey could operate like one of these companies that gets a monopoly on the market. Then, when farm systems got too expensive, and when bonuses went sky-high, Rickey changed. He went after quality only, to the extent that he could. He was trying conscious selection-even though the tools were very precise. But if he were alive today, he'd be experimenting with new tools: tests, special equipment, computers. He wouldn't be bound by the conventional wisdom, because he was the guy who invented the conventional wisdom.


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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:40 am

A question about Melky in a Santana deal:

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post Dec 1 2007, 02:05 PM
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Wouldn't Gardner be the best option in light of the likely cost of Santana? It is very likely that the 08 Yanks will lead the league in RS anyway.

Edit: While looking at Gardner's stats I am becoming more convinced that he is at least Cashman's plan C to replace Melky:

http://minors.baseball-reference.com/players.cgi?pid=5277

He obviously can't hit for power, but he can steal bases and his OBP isn't predicated on his BA. He could bat 9th in an order likely to score about 900 runs.

This post has been edited by jodyreeddudley78: Dec 1 2007, 02:50 PM
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post Dec 1 2007, 02:23 PM
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QUOTE(941827 @ Dec 1 2007, 02:14 PM) *
It was your post in that thread that prompted my post here.

I find it hard to believe the MFY have not learned their lesson about Damon and are going to go into the season with him at CF and hoping a minor-leaguer can step up if Damon gets hurt. That said, I also can't see them investing big money in Rowand or Jones after shelling out for Santana. They have SOME spending limit, don't they?

If Jones isn't getting many bites in the FA market, I wonder if Boras would be willing to have him sign a one-year deal with the MFY to enhance his value for a renewed run at FA next year. Probably not.


I really would not be shocked to see the Yankees stick a real defender like Brett Gardner out there.

Though, I would see if they could sign Mike Cameron to a low cost deal considering his suspension. Also, did Milton Bradley get cut loose? They could stick him out there.
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post Dec 1 2007, 02:47 PM
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id love to see Gardner get a shot, but who knows.
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post Dec 5 2007, 08:05 AM
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I completely agree that Melky is almost a throw-in to the deal, particularly because everyone knows the NYY can go and sign someone like Rowand that will be better in every facet of the game.

I think that has actually been one of the big holdups in this Santana trade. Sure, Melky has value to Minn... but they also know he doesn't have much to NYY... so why should they think his inclusion in the deal limits what they can get from New York? I imagine if NYY offer Hughes + 2 other top prospects + Melky as the throw-in, they'll take it. It's basically the Sox offer, with an upgraded version of Lester, Lowrie, and Masterson.

From the Sox perspective, it's too bad Lowrie didn't taste a little success at the ML level in Sept. last year... I think it might've boosted his value some.
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this trade is taking it's sweeeet time isnt' it?

As for Melky's value to the Yanks, well it looks like it's up now since most of the other CFs are signed adn the only guy remaining is a. 35 b. suspended for drugs for 25 game c. whiffs with the best of them d. might warrent a multi year deal.

Considering the health issue on the team's OFers, Melky does have some realistic value to the Yankees, with some hope of improvement given his age. it's certainly nothing to hold over for Santana obviously, but not like they're going to just throw him away for a crappy RP / Utlity guy.

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:43 am

Alright, let's break the GMs down.

New On The Job:
MacPhail (BAL)
Reagins (LAA) - replaces Bill Stoneman
Smith (MIN) - replaces Terry Ryan
Wren (ATL) - replaces Schuerholz
Hill (FLA) - replaces Larry Beinfest ... kind of.
Wade (HOU) - replaced Tim Purpura (and interim GM Tal Smith)
Huntington (PIT) - replaces Dave Littlefield
Mozeliak (STL) - replaces Walt Jocketty

Probably a bit early to judge any of these guys. Baltimore moved Tejada for a decent return, although MacPhail can't be criticized for the previous GMs holding on to him for too long. LAA missed out on the Miguel Cabrera sweepstakes, Smith is currently struggling with moving Johan Santana. Atlanta lost Andruw Jones, but that would've happened regardless of the GM. Hill in Florida's an interesting case, if only because Larry Beinfest is apparently still running things as President of Baseball Operations despite ceding the GM title, so there's been some confusion there as to who's really in charge. Mozeliak has done little to nothing so far, although not giving David Eckstein a large amount of money is a definite plus. Same is true for Huntington, though it's hard to imagine him not being a massive upgrade over the pile of suck that was Dave Littlefield.

Really, the only GM out of these that I think can be judged right away is Wade, who traded away Brad Lidge for nothing and picked up Tejada, which when coupled with the loss of Adam Everett, will probably end up being a wash. All this while tossing away a handful of decent prospects and giving random middle relievers major league contracts. I'd say Wade, who was throughly mediocre in Philadelphia, is easily one of the worst GMs in the NL, if not baseball.

As to the rest of the GMs:

Top of the Top:
Epstein (BOS)
Shapiro (CLE)
Beane (OAK)
Dombrowski (DET)
Towers (SDP)
Cashman (NYY)

I don't think there'll be too much debate on the first three listed here. Epstein has two WS titles in five years and a top five farm system. Shapiro's built the Indians up into one of the AL's premier teams, and Beane's track record speaks for itself. It'll be interesting to see how he finagles this rebuilding project. Dombrowski has Illitch's money backing him up in Detroit, but he's done a remarkable job turning the Tigers around. The Miguel Cabrera trade was another feather in his cap.

The Padres have won four division titles and a pennant under Towers and narrowly lost a postseason berth in 2007, which I think is enough to make him one of baseball's best GMs. Cashman ... well, he should honestly be in a category by himself, seeing as how the Yankees are, both in terms of finance and ownership, in a league of their own.

2nd Tier:
Moore (KC)
Friedman (TB)
Daniels (TEX)
Ricciardi (TOR)
Byrnes (ARI)
Hendry (CHC)
O'Dowd (COL)
Melvin (MIL)
Minaya (NYM)
Bowden (WAS)
Gillick (PHI)

I know this kind of goes against the exercise here, but is there really any way that anyone can claim that they'd rather have any GM in this category over any other in the same category? I suppose that the top guy here is Byrnes, but that Arizona team really did work on smoke and mirrors last year, and their ass offense cost them in the playoffs. Byrnes has done just about zero to address that this offseason, while sending a huge part of the farm to Oakland for Dan Haren. O'Dowd used to appear in the lower GM rankings on a regular basis, but a good postseason run and a nice core of young players will do a lot to turn a reputation around. Moore and Friedman have some atrocious situations to deal with, but they both come with good pedigrees, and I think there's real progress being made with both teams.

Ricciardi remains to me one of the most overrated GMs in baseball, not to mention the fact that he routinely comes across as a pompous ass. I imagine that another .500 finish/no playoffs in 2008 would put him on a very hot seat. Same with Minaya, to a degree. Bowden is another GM that, like O'Dowd, has apparently improved. Of course, having said that, I fully expect him to trade his farm system for the corpse of Dernell Stenson in the next 48 hours.

Hendry, Daniels, and Melvin I don't have much of an opinion about. Daniels is still pretty new, and Melvin and Hendry have done pretty good jobs with their respective teams. Gillick is the definition of front office mediocrity.

Worst of the Worst:
Williams (CHW)
Bavasi (SEA)
Krivsky (CIN)
Colletti (LAD)
Sabean (SF)

Except for a WS title in 2005, Williams' tenure as GM has been pretty forgettable. Bavasi is, IMO, the worst AL GM by a wide margin. Krivsky is young, but doesn't inspire a lot of confidence. Colletti's faults have been noted, as have Sabean's.

Out of those five, I'd say that Bavasi trumps them all in shittiness. Colletti sat on his prospects too long, and the Juan Pierre deal was terrible right from the get go, but he hasn't done much else. At least Nomar and Luis Gonzalez were short contracts.

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:44 am

Players must regain public trust
posted: Thursday, January 10, 2008 | Print Entry


http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?name=gammons_peter

On a Caribbean beach, it is wonderful not to read or listen to lawyer-speak and lawyer-leak. There are drawbacks, such as no Morning Joe or MLBrumors.com on my BlackBerry, but until we know why there is any reason that Brian McNamee would possibly lie or why Roger Clemens would risk it all by testifying under oath and risk jail time, we need to do a little power-yoga breathing and relax.

What is worrisome is that, as Barry Bonds and Clemens have entered the journalistic world of Britney Spears and Larry Craig, we are back in the winter of 1994-95, when the strike cancelled a World Series and left us with Bud Selig and Donald Fehr as the faces and voices of the game. Then, we had then-Marlins owner Wayne Huizenga destroying his franchise as he told fans that beer league veterans liked the game more than real players. Now, we have steroids as the storyline for the 2008 season and the only subject of questions Brian Roberts and Eric Gagne will face.

It may be two years before baseball restores its public trust. If Ryan Howard, Albert Pujols, Prince Fielder, Alex Rodriguez and David Ortiz are in a battle to get to 60 homers, how will the court of public opinion judge them? Will people really care?

A couple of years ago when the Jason Grimsley testimony was made public, several media outlets thought a Kansas City trainer who had worked with Pujols was named. In Boston, no matter how fair WEEI host Dale Arnold -- who is as fair and balanced as anyone -- tried to be, the gist of the callers' comments was that Pujols must be a fraud. As it turned out, the report was incorrect, but the questions were raised about Pujols, and will be about any player who puts up extraordinary numbers.

Baseball's heroes are stained, and whether the union likes it or not, it's up to the players to rebuild the trust. It will take more than greeting fans at the gates on Opening Day; the majority of clean players have to insist on drug testing and a concerted effort to give their time to rebuilding the bridge with the public. It's time for players to do more than talk about a level playing field. It's time to insist that the union put down its shield and reach out, because baseball faces a serious recession.

It does no good to throw blame. Bud Selig wishes he had better understood what was going on, and when he tried to purge himself with the Mitchell report, what he got from his esteemed friend was a document that not only would have been graded as incomplete, but left Selig bleeding. To his credit, Selig continues to agonize. There are vast conspiracy theories -- the most ridiculous is that George Bush knew what was going on in Texas, when most people who knew Bush and Tom Schieffer when they owned the Rangers believe they were such rebels they would have released every player they thought was breaking the law. But he fact remains that there is no concrete proof of the underground allegations.

When baseball came off the strike in 1995, it was a $1.3 billion industry. This past season, baseball was a $6.2 billion industry, but the business is not going to continue to skew upward.

It needs Ortiz, Derek Jeter, A-Rod, Howard, Jimmy Rollins, Vlad Guerrero, C.C. Sabathia, Grady Sizemore, Justin Verlander, Russell Martin, Jake Peavy, Hunter Pence, Jacoby Ellsbury, Jon Lester, Joba Chamberlain, Torii Hunter, Joe Mauer, David Wright, Jose Reyes, Jeff Francoeur, Chipper Jones and hundreds of other players to take back their game, their business, their passion.

Human rights are important, but right now the restoration of faith in a badly tainted business is more important. It's not solely Selig's responsibility; it's the responsibility of everyone making money in the business -- players, agents, owners, media outlets -- to take the public eye away from the tawdry, shabby lawyer talk and remind the public why some of us love to watch Jeter and Josh Beckett, Johan Santana and Pujols, Hanley Ramirez and Martin play.

Don't blame Jose Canseco or McNamee for scorching the earth. Blame the pacifist players. Fielder could hit 74 home runs this season and have to live with scrutiny, innuendo and doubt, because the game has lost a huge chunk of its credibility.

Don't ask owners for your level playing field or respect. Look in the mirror and ask your union. Bonds and Clemens may be the two greatest players of the last quarter century, and right now they are despised.

And Howard, Fielder and Pujols might pay the price.

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:49 am

When everyone else seems to be downsizing their offers or standing pat, I'm not sure how Guerra got thrown into the mix.

Gomez, Mulvey, Pelfrey/Humber should be our best offer.

If you want to throw a couple of bodies at the back end, a la Arizona, that would be acceptable.

But until the Yankees get crazy, I stand pat.

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:51 am

Carlos Gomez
Philip Humber
Deolis Guerra
Kevin Mulvey

that is the best pkg out there right now.

Phil Hughes
Melky Cabrera
Jeff Marquez
and maybe some scrub thrown in

Coco Crisp
Jon Lester
Justin Masterson
Jed Lowrie

talent wise, the Mets deal is head and shoulders better than the others. Of course Hughes is Hughes, but Melky is extroadinarly overrated, he does not have one stat that jumps out that he will be anything special, and Marquez isn't anything special either.

Crisp is overrated too, because honestly, he brings defense to the table and some speed, his bat has been on the decline, he does not look like a good pro hitter. Lester at best is maybe a 3 , way more likely a 4. Mastterson isn't much of a prospect, and Lowrie is Pedroia with a little pop, in my eyes Lowrie would be the best piece they are getting from BOS

Then you look at the Mets deal ..

Kevin Mulvey projects to be as good as a #3 .. but more likely to settle as a #4 type .. but a more likely chance at success than Lester, as Lester can't throw strikes to save his life.

Phil Humber, let's say right now he is maxing out as a 4, could be higher if he comes back strong etc, but for arguments sake let's say he's a 4.

Deolis Guerra projects as a 1 or 2 starter, period.

Carlos Gomez gets comparisons to Jimmy Rollins, and if he's Rollins of 07, that's an absolute stud. Only Gomez will steal more bases.

I think if you are looking at talent, the Mets deal is the best on the table. Mulvey and Humber can be in their rotation opening day, Gomez can play center, and then Guerra waiting in the wings to dominate.


And here's a question for you guys nd gals.

Why do the Mets have to give up Gomez,Guerra types

Why do the Yankees have to give up Hughes

But Boston has to give up...Jon Lester?

I wouldn't trade any more then 3 top prospects in any deal for Santana. 2 of the pitchers, and 1 OFer. Then I go to Carp/Evans/Duda, Rustich/Kunz/Marte, Vargas/Bostick/Parnell.

3 top prospects
3 lesser prospects

Take it or leave it.


nymets945 wrote:
The Star Tribune's Joe Christensen believes the Twins would send Johan Santana to the Mets if New York added Fernando Martinez to its current offer of Carlos Gomez, Deolis Guerra, Phil Humber and Kevin Mulvey.


That's just way too high a price to pay. I know Johan is one of a kind, but 5 potential MLB players with a few having pretty good potential. No thank you.


Giving up that many starters, along with outfield depth, certainly doesn't help our depth as a team. Ultimately we got burned last year, in part, by lack of depth in the outfield and starting pitching. Trading away three potentially decent starters isn't the way to move forward, even if an ace comes back in the deal. The rotation would look mighty ugly if Pedro and Duque got hurt at the same time. Santana-Ollie-Maine-Sosa-??? Parnell? Something that looks a lot like Jose Lima? I'd rather keep the depth.

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:53 am

Twins well-positioned for 2008 draft
Wednesday, January 9th, 2008

We are checking daily for any movement in the Johan Santana trade discussions, and so far this week, we haven’t detected any. The Twins still appear to be a stand-still in their discussions with the Yankees, Red Sox and Mets. No other team appears to be a serious contender, but we’ll keep you posted if we hear otherwise.

Quick note: The Twins are slated to have three of the first 31 picks in this year’s amateur draft. They have the 14th pick, and No. 27 (from the Angels for the Torii Hunter signing) and No. 31 (the first supplemental pick, also courtesy of the Hunter signing). You can see the entire order in this Q&A session with Baseball America writer Jim Callis.

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:54 am

Tyler says:

January 9th, 2008 at 4:49 pm

3 Questions

What draft picks would we get if we do not resign Santanta next year?

How does the slot system work?

When is the Draft?

If anyone knows the answer to this questions please answer.

Coming_Former_fan says:

January 9th, 2008 at 4:57 pm

Bush is way overstating the impact of a drop in attendance on total revenues. If attendance drops 20%(the Twins draw 1.6 million instead of 2 mil.) and the average ticket price is $15, the total drop in revenue would be 6 million and Carl puts 20 MILLION in his pocket, never to see the light of day again. Does everyone still buy the idea that the Twins could never afford Johan? One more question - If the Twin Cities are the seventh largest media market in the US and the Twins have a new stadium coming, when will the Twins stop selling the small market claim?

Tyler says:

January 9th, 2008 at 5:10 pm

Hank Steinbrenner is quoted as saying that he would not give a contract for more than five years to Santana. That might be good news for the Twins, and they can convince Santanta to a five year extension at 20 mil a year. I would be happy if they signed him, but they must also sign Morneau,Mauer,Young, and maybe Cuddyer to long term deals. If they say that they do not have the money and can not sign santana and the other players, i say screw santana. I dont buy that argument, but i would much rather have those Morneau,Mauer,Young, and Cuddyer, than an expensive Santana.

Funkytown says:

January 9th, 2008 at 5:53 pm

Please file tampering charges vs Hank, Twins.

Draft is in June

Twins would get the Team’s first rounder that signs Johan, and likely, the first pick between 1/2 rounds.

Just like Hunter this year.

Slotting is MLB’s attempt to average out pick contract values over so many years,then recommend teams only offer around that value or slightly higher.

Teams like Detroit don’t bother to follow.

Socrates says:

January 9th, 2008 at 5:55 pm

Tyler,
The draft is in June.
The Twins get the first round choice of the team that signs Santana plus one choice from the supplementary (after the first) round.
The slot system reccommends the signing bonus for draft choices based on selection. (Higher the pick, higher the signing bonus)It has been ignored by some rich teams (ie. Detroit)despite (empty) threats from the commisioner’s office.

Bush says:

January 9th, 2008 at 6:15 pm

I agree that tickets alone will not cost the team enough to lose Johan. My point is that it is easy to project a reduction in revenues this season with the outlook of the team being what it is. In addition, ticket revenues are directly tied to other streams - concessions and merchandise - and indirectly to sponsorship (no butts in seats, no signage contract). I am not excusing the practice of slashing payroll. I am merely pointing out that if the team spends x% of revenues on player payroll, we should expect player payroll to be down this season.

coco says:

January 9th, 2008 at 6:16 pm

I believe Twins will only get the 1st round pick of the team which signs Johan IF the team has a winning record. If the team has a losing record, the Twins would either get 2 supplementary choices or supplementary & 2 round choice. I don’t remember which is correct. Therefore if Bill Smith can get at LEAST THREE PROSPECTS, the Twins will come out ahead.

liondragon says:

January 9th, 2008 at 6:36 pm

coco,
if your team is in the top 15 teams for records and you sign a A lvl player it costs you a 1st rounders and one between the first and second (same as hunter).
if the team is in the bottom 15 it costs you one between the first and second and a second round pick (instead of a first)

Gman says:

January 9th, 2008 at 6:43 pm

It probably doesn’t matter if the Twins draft position players or not. Sometimes I think that TK is still running things. Didn’t the Twins draft a bunch of 150 pound punch and judy hitters last year?

liondragon says:

January 9th, 2008 at 6:45 pm

gman,
i perfer to call him revere…… lol

Sane says:

January 9th, 2008 at 6:46 pm

coco,
Prospects like Hughes, Ellsbury, Lowrie, Masterson, F-Mart, Gomez, Pelfrey, Guerra, and Mulvey are far more valuable than a high risk draft choice.
Twins recent first round (not supplementary) draft choices have gotten them:
Ryan Mills, BJ Garbe, Adam Johnson, Denard Span, Matt Moses, Trevor Plouffe, Kyle Waldrop and Jay Rainville.
Nice haul.
If Bill Smith can get ONE high ranking prospect from the above list, it is better than FIVE draft choices.

liondragon says:

January 9th, 2008 at 7:04 pm

waldrop was a 3rd round pick not a first…. he was in the same draft as plouffe… and you forgot about the one in 2005 that we drafted… garza. we traded him for the 1st overall draft pick in 03…… not a bad haul indead…
btw. you look at how great the yankees and red soxs and these teams do in drafts.. but you have to relize.. when you draft someone, they dont always come out good. very often they dont make it out of the minors.. even first round picks.. very rarely (the yankees and red soxs have been very lucky the last 2 years..) and i mean rarely, you get a all star calliber player.. (garza, young, hughes, hanley ramirez, etc….) when you have the opportunity to get 4 players,
(1 all star calliber 1 possible all star calliber (cabera, yes i think he might not proven yet but might… only 22) a mid lvl prospect who might make an impact and another mid lvl prospect who may be very good (hilligoss) you take that any day over 2 1st round drafts.. in baseball draft picks arnt proven if we were talking about football thats a different story……

coco says:

January 9th, 2008 at 7:12 pm

Sane, I was trying to say if we can even get 3 prospects from another team in a trade, we will be farther ahead than any 2 draft picks. I believe that I read that a first round pick in Baseball only has a 50% chance of making an appearance in the Majors. Due to mistakes in talent evaluation & injuries. It’s not like the NFL where players go directly to NFL. It is the VERY RARE baseball player that skips over any time in the Minors. Dave Winfield & Pete Inkglevelia (? spelling) come to mind. Very rare indeed.

Sane says:

January 9th, 2008 at 7:15 pm

Liondragon,
Waldrop, Perkins and Plouffe were all FIRST ROUND PICKS.
Rainville and Matt Fox were SUPPLEMENTARY FIRST ROUND picks.
Swarzak was 2nd round, Morlan third round.
Don’t believe me? Look it up.
However, we do agree on the relative value of draft picks compared to high l;evel prospects.

coco says:

January 9th, 2008 at 7:17 pm

Liondragon, thanks for the clarification on draft picks according to which team signs a player. I knew there was a difference but was hazy on exact details. We get Angels’ 1st pick & suppl. because they were a top 15 team not just a winning team. (I would imagine each year there are approx. 15 winning teams though). So I was not too far off.

liondragon says:

January 9th, 2008 at 7:49 pm

sane your right on waldrop sorry… i didnt see that there were 5 1st round picks in 04…. i was just counting down the list… Smile

liondragon says:

January 9th, 2008 at 7:50 pm

coco,
np and you were close

Sane says:

January 9th, 2008 at 7:59 pm

liondragon,
No problem.
I make enough mistakes to require multiple fact-checkers.

twins2010 says:

January 9th, 2008 at 9:08 pm

TYLER

the twins already locked up joe mauer…

GBG says:

January 9th, 2008 at 9:15 pm

Coming former fan says: “One more question - If the Twin Cities are the seventh largest media market in the US” — where do you get this from? Nielsen ranks the Twin Cities as 15th…The 14 markets ahead of us have 18 teams.

So, out of the 30 teams in MLB, the Twins rank 19th. I can’t fathom how you rank us 7th…

dave says:

January 9th, 2008 at 9:41 pm

Good discussion, which has moved in multiple directions. Getting back to the earlier thread, I’d love to see the Twins draft more position players, but what’s our recent track record? Our hitting hotshots have left everything to be desired. Avoid pitchers with those first three picks? Well, what happens if we trade Santana and Nathan and get neither Hughes or Buchholz? Even if we do obtain one or the other, that still leaves a staff comprised of [at best] a couple of #3 starters, with the rest #4 or #5. If—big if—there is a dominant starter when the Twins’ turn comes, they ought to take him.

RyanW says:

January 9th, 2008 at 10:24 pm

If we swing a deal with the Yankees, then Hank sticks to his word and only offers 5 years, and Santana envokes the no-trade clause… what would be the result?

Dont the Yankees really set the market? So if they only offer him 5, does it make him more affordable for the Twins?

I suppose it would mean he holds out for FA, but why would any team offer more than 5 if it has already been established that the Yankees, a team that needs him, has more money than God, and has lusted for him in public wont even offer him more than 5.

The result of such events would be interesting…

Just Craig checking up on the nitwits says:

January 9th, 2008 at 10:27 pm

Gentlemen and should there be an unfortunate lady present,

Let us all utilize our minds for a refreshing change of pace and conclude that a huge void exists in the teams proficiency in fielding the ball. Let us refrain from small-minded discourse to the contrary, and acknowledge this obvious deficiency. We must attempt to remedy the problem with this draft.

Let us not be remiss in addressing the incompetence of the pitching staff. We must habituate the practice of utilizing the draft to secure a bounty of talented pitchers. As we all should by now be cognizant of the fact that the number of hurlers can never reach a total too numerous.

The slow tortoise-like abilities of our teams running game should not be overlooked. Let’s voice our sincere displeasure at this regrettable recent development, and hearken back to swift runners re-mindful of Twins teams past. Let us draft gazelle-like runners to thrill us as they dash past our vanquished opponents to our merriment and revelry.

RyanW says:

January 9th, 2008 at 10:37 pm

GBG- The Twins media market is larger than the Twin Cities… it includes all of Minnesota, all of North Dakota, Eastern South Dakota, NE Nebraska, Nothern Iowa, and western Wisconson.

I believe we are the 14th largest market in the MLB, I am looking for the source of that number…

romer says:

January 9th, 2008 at 11:43 pm

Thanks Joe C for the Santana/Mets article.

I’m now relieved of all expections for the upcoming season — if the Mets deal with their no-ready-for-MLB prospects is the one the Twins make.

Didja see Goose Gossitch on Letterman’s Top 10? He’s looking mighty fine. Like he said, he’s still a flame-throwin’ sum’bitch.

Josh says:

January 10th, 2008 at 12:10 am

Coming_Former_fan says:

January 9th, 2008 at 4:57 pm

Bush is way overstating the impact of a drop in attendance on total revenues. If attendance drops 20%(the Twins draw 1.6 million instead of 2 mil.) and the average ticket price is $15, the total drop in revenue would be 6 million and Carl puts 20 MILLION in his pocket, never to see the light of day again. Does everyone still buy the idea that the Twins could never afford Johan? One more question - If the Twin Cities are the seventh largest media market in the US and the Twins have a new stadium coming, when will the Twins stop selling the small market claim?

That’s not remotely true. The Twins rank about 16th in media market size (Boston is actually 7th) and besides, it’s not really whether a team is small market or not, it’s what their revenues are that determine what they can spend.

Dennis says:

January 10th, 2008 at 12:10 am

Coming_Former_fan - Ack, you’re making me defend Carl Pohlad again, and I have to hold my nose while doing it. It doesn’t matter the size of the media market, it’s how much revenue the media contracts bring in. And over the last few years we have been between LAST and third to the last in the league. I don’t really know why that would be, but it is. Several sources have ranked that.

Further, to assume Carl will just put money from Johan savings into his pocket just reflects a desire to hate him. I’m virtually certain that part of the savings would go to extensions for Morneau and Cuddyer, and whoever else needs one. Further, it opens up money for future free agent signings or trades in which we pick up higher priced guys - Kei Igawa, for example.

Lastly, I can’t see any scenario in which it makes logical sense for the future of the franchise to sign Santana to a “market” contract. And therefore it makes no sense to do anything but trade him. If the total salary following a trade doesn’t immediately reach the 53-55% threshhold we can’t leap to the conclusion that Carl’s greediness is the reason behind the trade.

Sheesh, I feel a bit seedy having to defend Carl, but if we’re gonna rip him we should rip him for legitimate reasons.

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:56 am

Originally Posted by Rocketbooster
How does Clay have better stuff if Phil's curve is better and his fastball (per your below comment ) is better? Does one pitch, the change, make Clay so much better than Phil?
Two pitches, Changeup and Slider.

His Changeup is off the charts, it's ridiculous.

Clay's Slider > Phil's Slider.

EDIT: One thing I'm worried about Clay (other than his fastball command), is the fact that he has to move his head in order to make room for his arm, that's a big no-no in my book.

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:58 am

Originally Posted by metalboy15
Clay's curve rates as ~60-65 on the 20-80 scouting scale.

Phil's curve (when healthy) rates as ~70 (sometimes even as high as 75) on the 20-80 scouting scale.

Per BA: His(Clay)12-to-6 curveball and his changeup both rate as 70s on the 20-80 scouting scale and are better than any on Boston's big league staff.

Show me where Hughes curve sometimes rates as high as 70-75?





Show me where Hughes curve sometimes rates as high as 70-75?
Quote:
A scout’s take on Hughes’ stuff on Thursday (big league debut)…

... Curveball: very good, deceptive movement. Knows the right time and count to throw it. Can vary the degree of movement effectively.

20-80 scale: 70
mvn.com




Quote:
Originally Posted by THEBOSS84
I agree with everything you said but with one question. Are you saying Phil has the overall better fastball because of his comman? I thought Clay has a slightly harder FB.
Hughes has the better fastball. 90-94 mph touching 95 mph (when healthy) with late life and plus command. From Hardball Times:

Quote:
Hughes' ace-like projections are based solely off of one pitch: an uber-strong fastball, typically a four-seamer but also with some two-seam stuff mixed in. It tops out at 96 mph and regularly sits in the 91-95 mph zone. Combine that with plus command and you have a top-draw strike out pitch. Let's define plus command. Simply put, he can place the ball exactly where he wants when he wants while hurling 95 mph gas. This command and power combination will sit at the cornerstone of Hughes’ success or failure for years to come. If he becomes a Hall-of-Fame caliber pitcher it will be because of this, likewise if he sinks to obscurity. He launches the fastball around 60-70% of the time.

Clay's fastball comes in at 91-92 mph with some 93s-94s along the way, has some leteral movement, has trouble commanding it at times. From BA's Red Sox Top 10:

Quote:
... He needs to throw more fastball strikes early in counts and improve his command of the pitch...

Wotii Chang January 10th, 2008 at 5:39 am




What the Yankees have is great batting which is why the yankees are the only team in the playoffs for so long. In order to win a championship it will take more than that for sure. Good pitching is the answer. Without getting into whether the yankees should or shouldn’t do the Santana deal look at what the yankees have now. They have a proven starter in Wang maybe not an ace maybe a ace it doesn’t matter. 19 wins a year with this offense is expected maybe up to 22 but we’ll have to wait and see. Pettitte is worth about 15 to 17 wins though there might be surprises. Mussina can be counted on to win 10 to 12 games at least and eat up innings. Each one of the 3 can be expected to pitch less and win about if they can play as expected 13 to 16 wins maybe better. 83 to 99 wins can be expected IF they all get to play

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:58 am

Wotii Chang January 10th, 2008 at 6:03 am

This brings up the point that has been deeply argued for and against the 3 week rotation. It can be a great idea or it can be not such a good idea. With giving two out of three weeks starts we give each one of the young guys less innings and almost normal starts. If you add to that some long relief on the third week the one they are not starting it gives them not too much rest which is not wanted. On the other hand such a system has never been tested . It might not work as planned. The Yankees should look into this idea and try it Spring Training where they try out many ideas. It will give the Yankees a look at it and IF it works a solution to the 5 start rotation and a solution to innings.

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:00 am

Hank: Players: ‘Santana? We don’t need no stinkin’ Santana’
Posted by: Ben K. in Hank Steinbrenner, Injuries



http://riveraveblues.com/2008/01/10/hank-players-santana-we-dont-need-no-stinkin-santana-1958/





Hank Steinbrenner: the gift that keeps on giving! Gotta love him. Maybe.

One day after we wrote about how Hank is conducting Johan Santana contract negotiations through Kat O’Brien, we get yet another spin on the Johan Santana story. This one comes to us from Pete Caldera, and this time, Hank says that other players on the Yankees think they can win without Santana.

Well, gosh, I sure do hope the Yanks have a good sense of self-confidence. I wouldn’t want them to say they think they’re going to finish behind the Orioles if they don’t land Santana.

Anyway, some relevant bits:

While speaking to some of his trusted veteran Yankees on other matters, senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner also has sought input about a possible deal for Johan Santana.

According to the majority opinion of his players, the team doesn’t need to make a blockbuster deal with the Minnesota Twins to put them over the top. “Nobody would say that we don’t want Santana, but, yeah, they’re pretty darn confident in what we can do this year [as is],” Steinbrenner said during a phone conversation Tuesday…

“We’re still throwing it around and talking about it. It may happen, or it may not happen,” Steinbrenner said. “But a few of our best players seem very confident in the way that things stand right now.”

Hank wouldn’t say which players don’t think they need Santana. However, as Caldera notes, Jorge Posada himself a few months ago said the Yanks sure could use the power lefty on the team.

Additionally, Steinbrenner noted that the Yankees are still in the Santana race despite a deadline because that deadline applied only to the discussions at the Winter Meetings. “Originally, I set a deadline … because the winter meetings [are] a circus,” Steinbrenner said. “And I’m not going to be played against another team.”

Anyway, despite the talk, the Mets may have the inside track on Santana. If the Yanks’ crosstown rivals add prospect Fernando Martinez to their offer, they may emerge as the frontrunners to land Santana.


#

The longer this goes on the more i see him going to the mets becase they are so desperate to erase the thoughts of last year. If they are going to deplete their entire farm system for santana so be it. the ironic thing is that of the three teams they are the one that can least afford johan. they make this trade and it will haunt them for years.

the trade means risk for both the yanks and sox, but for the mets it coul kill their ranchise. then again, it could mean a WS next year
#
Hank Speaks (Again), Twins Worried About Melky « iYankees says:
January 10th, 2008 at 3:58 am

[…] to RAB for […]
#
E-ROC says:
January 10th, 2008 at 4:58 am (Reply)

The Mets might as well give up the farm for Santana. They desperately need Santana. They only have two healthy successful arms in the rotation. They should probably do a talent for talent trade or trade for Noah Lowry, instead of giving up everything for Santana. I think what “The Boss” said about Cashman last season applies to Omar Minaya. He’s a on very BIG hook this season.
#
snoop dogg resident says:
January 10th, 2008 at 5:40 am (Reply)

accept the difference is that unlike cashman, i think omar is the type to make that move.i am not a huge cashman fan, but at the same time i do respect him for having a set and not making panic trades.

still dont think the santana seal is a panic one though becuase I reaaly think he puts them in a position the next 5 years (depending on how they handle the off season) to win a couple more rings. my opnion about this remain - worry anout 2010 in 2010 - take care of the near future first
#
Jeff says:
January 10th, 2008 at 6:49 am (Reply)

Couldn’t that be correlated with the earlier post RAB made where Andy was saying we could get by without an ace? Sometimes one turns into a couple when you are trying to justify things. Maybe Hank is getting tired of his lone battle and trying to convince himself out of it. - Although I hope thats not the case because I’d to see Santana in pinstripes.
Also in the article Jorge is for having a real Ace. Maybe he has an idea about how to get out of the first round of the playoffs.

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:02 am

Yanks confident, even without Santana


http://www.northjersey.com/sports/yankees/13553732.html

Wednesday, January 9, 2008
BY PETE CALDERA


While speaking to some of his trusted veteran Yankees on other matters, senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner also has sought input about a possible deal for Johan Santana.

According to the majority opinion of his players, the team doesn't need to make a blockbuster deal with the Minnesota Twins to put them over the top.

"Nobody would say that we don't want Santana, but, yeah, they're pretty darn confident in what we can do this year [as is]," Steinbrenner said during a phone conversation Tuesday.

Steinbrenner said "a lot of factors" are involved in a potential deal for Santana, and mentioned that the Yankees already have the highest payroll in baseball.

"We're still throwing it around and talking about it. It may happen, or it may not happen," Steinbrenner said. "But a few of our best players seem very confident in the way that things stand right now."

Steinbrenner would not reveal which veteran players he had spoken to, but offered that "they feel fairly confident that we've got a lot of great young pitchers."

More than a month ago, before Andy Pettitte was re-signed, Jorge Posada was one veteran who came out in favor of a deal. "We need a No. 1, and I think that's one of the reasons we're going after Santana," Posada said at the time.

Steinbrenner said he hasn't thought about a deal with Minnesota over the past few days, and that he's "not particularly concerned" about the possibility of Santana being traded to another club.

"That's not putting him down," Steinbrenner said. "He's clearly a tremendous pitcher. It's just whether this is best [for our club]."

Steinbrenner said he feels that the Yankees "still probably have the best offer" available for Santana, but later added that "we're all very confident in [Phil] Hughes."

Hughes has been linked as the key component in a potential deal, along with center fielder Melky Cabrera, and right-handed prospect Jeff Marquez. The Twins seem to be seeking at least one more significant prospect to make a deal.

Santana also would command a significant extension, possibly near $150 million, from his new club. Apparently, there is no deadline as far as the Yankees are concerned.

"Originally, I set a deadline ... because the winter meetings [are] a circus," Steinbrenner said. "And I'm not going to be played against another team."

While Steinbrenner has been portrayed as being in favor of a trade, general manager Brian Cashman and general partner Hal Steinbrenner, Hank's younger brother, seem more concerned with the impact on the luxury tax, and more reluctant to part with young stars under the club's control for several years.

While speaking to some of his trusted veteran Yankees on other matters, senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner also has sought input about a possible deal for Johan Santana.

Alex Rodriguez and the Yankees are confident they will contend for the World Series in 2008.

According to the majority opinion of his players, the team doesn't need to make a blockbuster deal with the Minnesota Twins to put them over the top.

"Nobody would say that we don't want Santana, but, yeah, they're pretty darn confident in what we can do this year [as is]," Steinbrenner said during a phone conversation Tuesday.

Steinbrenner said "a lot of factors" are involved in a potential deal for Santana, and mentioned that the Yankees already have the highest payroll in baseball.

"We're still throwing it around and talking about it. It may happen, or it may not happen," Steinbrenner said. "But a few of our best players seem very confident in the way that things stand right now."

Steinbrenner would not reveal which veteran players he had spoken to, but offered that "they feel fairly confident that we've got a lot of great young pitchers."

More than a month ago, before Andy Pettitte was re-signed, Jorge Posada was one veteran who came out in favor of a deal. "We need a No. 1, and I think that's one of the reasons we're going after Santana," Posada said at the time.

Steinbrenner said he hasn't thought about a deal with Minnesota over the past few days, and that he's "not particularly concerned" about the possibility of Santana being traded to another club.

"That's not putting him down," Steinbrenner said. "He's clearly a tremendous pitcher. It's just whether this is best [for our club]."

Steinbrenner said he feels that the Yankees "still probably have the best offer" available for Santana, but later added that "we're all very confident in [Phil] Hughes."

Hughes has been linked as the key component in a potential deal, along with center fielder Melky Cabrera, and right-handed prospect Jeff Marquez. The Twins seem to be seeking at least one more significant prospect to make a deal.

Santana also would command a significant extension, possibly near $150 million, from his new club. Apparently, there is no deadline as far as the Yankees are concerned.

"Originally, I set a deadline ... because the winter meetings [are] a circus," Steinbrenner said. "And I'm not going to be played against another team."

While Steinbrenner has been portrayed as being in favor of a trade, general manager Brian Cashman and general partner Hal Steinbrenner, Hank's younger brother, seem more concerned with the impact on the luxury tax, and more reluctant to part with young stars under the club's control for several years.

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:04 am

Baseball America publishes Boston's Top Ten Prospects list



http://www.soxandpinstripes.com/

Baseball America published the list of Boston's Top Ten Prospects in its latest issue. It is similar to the rankings I wrote in my post on Christmas Day.

Most publications agree that Clay Buchholz and Jacoby Ellsbury are the two best prospects in the Red Sox farm system. The No. 3 prospect is especially subject for debate. I have seen some media sites place Jed Lowrie or Justin Masterson in the third spot. I agree with Baseball America. Lars Anderson is Boston's third best prospect.

The Sox farm system is well-stocked with promising pitchers, infielders and outfielders. Catching is still an issue, as it is for most Major League teams. Mark Wagner, who will likely begin the 2008 season at Double-A Portland, is opening eyes. Dusty Brown and George Kottaras are catchers who will probably start the season at Triple-A Pawtucket.

Here is Baseball America's Top Ten list:

1. Clay Buchholz, starting pitcher
2. Jacoby Ellsbury, center fielder
3. Lars Anderson, first base
4. Justin Masterson, pitcher
5. Jed Lowrie, shortstop/second base
6. Ryan Kalish, outfielder
7. Michael Bowden, starting pitcher
8. Nick Hagadone, pitcher
9. Oscar Tejeda, shortstop
10. Josh Reddick, outfielder

As part of its' top prospects report on the Red Sox, Baseball America includes Boston's projected 2011 lineup. The lineup is based on players currently in the Red Sox organization at the big league and minor league levels. Here it is:

* Catcher - Mark Wagner
* First Base - Lars Anderson
* Second Base - Dustin Pedroia
* Shortstop - Jed Lowrie
* Third Base - Kevin Youkilis
* Left Field - Ryan Kalish
* Center Field - Jacoby Ellsbury
* Right Field - Josh Reddick
* DH - David Ortiz
* No. 1 Starter - Josh Beckett
* No. 2 Starter - Clay Buchholz
* No. 3 Starter - Daisuke Matsuzaka
* No. 4 Starter - Jon Lester
* No. 5 Starter - Michael Bowden
* Closer - Jonathan Papelbon

Baseball America bases this list on in-house candidates because, obviously, the staffers cannot forecast trades and free agent signings. I agree with the rotation. Of course, between now and 2011, an injury could occur and/or Michael Bowden may not develop as expected. I think it is safe to say that Beckett, Buchholz, Matsuzaka and Lester will be solid Major League starters in 2011. Beckett and Dice-K already are.

I am not convinced that Wagner is the answer behind the plate. I envision the Sox trading for a young catcher, or signing a free agent option, when Varitek retires. Hopefully, Boston can develop a catcher of the future, a task easier said than done.

The farm system is loaded with third base candidates - including Oscar Tejeda (who is a shortstop right now but might be moved to third base) and Will Middlebrooks. If Lars Anderson develops as expected, I can envision Boston eventually trading Kevin Youkilis or letting him walk as a free agent. Tejeda and Middlebrooks are highly regarded, but they have a long path before they reach the big leagues.

I do think that two-thirds of Boston's outfield will be eventually occupied by Ellsbury and Kalish, as long as one or the other is not shipped to Minnesota in a deal for Johan Santana. Reddick is very promising, but the Sox will likely trade for or sign a premium bat when Manny Ramirez retires. The Sox will likely pick up Ramirez's options for 2009 and 2010, but they will need an impact hitter to replace him in 2011.

You can read the full Baseball America report on the Red Sox top prospects at http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/features/265385.html

If you would like to learn more about any of the names mentioned in Baseball America's report, I encourage you to visit http://www.soxprospects.com, a must-read site for die-hard Red Sox fan

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Re: Santana

Post  RedMagma on Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:05 am

The interesting spot is Hagadone at #8, I know Jeff likes him too. BA picks Brackman #6 for the Yanks, and he won't throw a pitch 'til 2009.

What will that premium bat cost by 2011, way too much I suspect! Who will have a RF arm?

The Yanks have some catchers, would we trade for a lefty arm? Can't get Lyle for Cator from Theo! And I'm sure Cashman told him nothing he didn't already know last Saturday. Ricciardi was the real winner there!

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