Super Rivalry: Beantown Vs. Big Apple

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Super Rivalry: Beantown Vs. Big Apple

Post  RedMagma on Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:46 pm

Super Rivalry: Beantown Vs. Big Apple


http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iFyHdPClBNsPlPjle8Fp5GCyPfVAD8UEFF982


By BEN WALKER – 2 hours ago

Paul Pierce spotted a few pals seated courtside at Madison Square Garden and wanted to make nice. So on his way to the foul line, the Boston Celtics star stopped by to slap hands and say hey to Plaxico Burress, R.W. McQuarters and some other New York Giants.

Real friendly, real peaceful.

A minute later, Pierce went ballistic. His trash talking with Quentin Richardson of the Knicks escalated, and both of them were ejected.

"With the Super Bowl, with New York Yankees-Red Sox, that's just the way New York-Boston sports are," Pierce said. "For some reason when we play the Knicks, it's a heated game."

Oh, for the record: Pierce hopes the New England Patriots beat his buddies Sunday.

Be it on the field, court, diamond or ice, that's how it is between Beantown and the Big Apple.

Goes beyond Babe Ruth, Bucky Dent and Bill Buckner, too. Way past Spygate or when Bruins rabblerouser Mike Milbury climbed into the stands and banged a Rangers fan with his own shoe.

Think of Boston Pops vs. Metropolitan Opera. "Boston Legal" vs. "Law & Order." Boston cream pie vs. New York cheesecake. New England clam chowder vs. Manhattan clam chowder.

Culture or colleges, politicians or players, bring it on.

It's a long-running rivalry — say, Boston Marathon vs. New York City Marathon — that dates to the original Patriots and settlers. Maybe Paul Revere vs. Henry Hudson, right up to Mitt Romney vs. Rudy Giuliani.

Now, the biggest game in America. Super Bowl, super rivalry.

"In every sport, doesn't matter what it is — could be checkers or chess — they want to beat the heck out of each other," New York Islanders captain Bill Guerin said.

Guerin, by the way, is from Wilbraham, Mass. "Of course, I'm pulling for the Pats," he said.

The Islanders played at Boston a few days ago and lost. Among the fans watching at the TD Banknorth Garden was Paul Redmond, wearing a Patriots shirt.

To Redmond, it's pretty simple.

"I think of classic good vs. evil, right vs. wrong," he said. "Any stereotype you could use when you pit two people or groups against each other."

Leave it to a Steinbrenner to be a bit more blunt.

"Let's face it, I don't like 'em, any more than they like us," New York Yankees senior vice president Hank Steinbrenner said, referring to the Red Sox.

"Of course, I'd like to see the Giants win because it's New York against Boston," he said. "But at the same time, I love Bill Belichick. I just think he's a genius. I hate to see the Patriots not get their just due because they've been dominant. Moreso than the Red Sox. Obviously moreso than the Red Sox. Boston's doing pretty well right now."

Belichick, formerly an assistant with the New York Jets and Giants, will be trying to coach the Patriots to their fourth NFL championship in seven seasons.

New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg, meanwhile, got his start in the Hub. Born in the suburb of Medford in 1942, he got his MBA from Harvard.

"I can tell you that when I lived in the Boston metropolitan area, they did not have a football team. So nobody can accuse me of having been a Patriot fan. I am a New York fan," he said.

When Bloomberg was in graduate school, Fenway Park was home to the Boston Patriots of the old American Football League. At the same time, Yankee Stadium housed the Giants.

Years later, the Giants moved farther into the Northeast, shuttling into the Yale Bowl for a couple of seasons while Yankee Stadium was renovated. Many fans in Connecticut still consider the state Giants territory; in fact, the Patriots almost moved to Hartford in the late 1990s.

The most intense matchups between Boston and New York came in other sports.

In 1972, Bobby Orr's goal helped the Bruins beat the New York Rangers for their most recent Stanley Cup title. Around the same time, John Havlicek, Dave Cowens and the Celtics were dueling Walt Frazier, Willis Reed and the Knicks for Eastern Conference crowns.

The Celtics and Knicks haven't met in the postseason since 1990. This season, Boston owns the NBA's best record and the Knicks have one of the worst.

"To really call it a rivalry is not the right statement because I believe rivals are made in the playoffs and championship games," Pierce said.

The Yankees-Red Sox rivalry might be the most charged in sports, heightened by what's happened in October.

New York beat Boston in Game 7 of the 2003 American League championship series. The next year, the Red Sox became the only team in baseball history to rally from a 3-0 deficit in the postseason.

After all those years of watching the Yankees win, the Red Sox and their fans can gloat with a pair of World Series titles in four seasons. Their success carries over into other sports.

"Right now the competition between the Red Sox and Yankees kind of parlays into the Rangers and Bruins," Boston defenseman Aaron Ward said. "It's always fun to beat New York. And when I was in New York, it was always fun to beat Boston."

AP freelance writers Mike Petraglia and Mark Altman in Boston and Mark Didtler in Tampa, Fla., contributed to this report.

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Re: Super Rivalry: Beantown Vs. Big Apple

Post  RedMagma on Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:54 pm

Giants' juggling act works at cornerback
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs07/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=3217285

Giants defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo turned himself into a hot NFL head-coaching candidate by making big changes to the way the team plays defense.

He creatively ramped up the pass rush by using four defensive ends in passing situations. He called more aggressive blitzes, many learned from Eagles defensive coordinator Jim Johnson. In the secondary, the most welcome change was a switch to man-to-man coverage for cornerbacks.

The only problem with the Giants' coverages is figuring out who is the man. Because of injuries and poor play, Spagnuolo has juggled five starting cornerbacks this season. And even heading into the Super Bowl, it's uncertain who's going to line up in press coverage against Randy Moss, Wes Welker and Donte' Stallworth.

[+] Enlarge
Sam Madison

David Stluka/Getty Images

Veteran Sam Madison says the Giants' group of cornerbacks is the best he has worked with in his 11-year career.
In the first two playoff games against Tampa Bay and Dallas, Spagnuolo started Corey Webster and rookie Aaron Ross at corner. Against the Packers, he started R.W. McQuarters and Webster.

Yep, that's the same Webster who began the season as a starter, was demoted to backup and twice was deactivated in favor of other cornerbacks. Webster and Ross might be the starters in Super Bowl XLII, but there is no guarantee, and the team doesn't seem particularly concerned.

"When something happens, we have other guys who could relieve,'' cornerback Sam Madison said. "It's good to have some combinations, and we have a lot of different combinations. We can do a lot of different things.''

The NFC Championship Game win over the Packers was an example of the secondary's resilience. Madison was benched after getting a personal-foul penalty for sparring with Packers running back Vernand Morency. Webster was burned for a 90-yard touchdown catch-and-run by Packers receiver Donald Driver but came back to make the game-changing interception in overtime. Overall, they held Packers QB Brett Favre to 19-for-35 passing for 236 yards and a 70.7 quarterback rating.

"This is the best group I've played with,'' said Madison, an 11-year veteran who has played mostly man-to-man coverage during his NFL career.

Heading into the playoffs, critics wondered about the Giants' depth at cornerbacks and how well they would match up against opponents because of injuries. Kevin Dockery, who started four games in the regular season, missed all three playoff games with a hip injury. Madison missed two playoff games with an abdominal strain suffered in the Week 17 loss to the Patriots. Ross, a rookie first-round choice from the University of Texas, suffered a shoulder injury in the playoff game against Dallas.

But New York's corners are getting healthier. And even though Spagnuolo may not have a Champ Bailey to shut down Moss, the Giants will be competitive against New England's receivers.

[+] Enlarge
Aaron Ross

Photo by Marvin Gentry-US PRESSWIRE

Rookie cornerback Aaron Ross, a first-round pick from Texas, has made steady progress this season.
A year ago, the Giants' corners grumbled about playing the zone schemes implemented by former defensive coordinator Tim Lewis. Every Giants cornerback is more experienced in man-to-man than zone. They wanted to attack, and Spagnuolo freed them to do so this season.

"The majority of what we play now is man-to-man,'' Madison said. "Spag came in here and we had some good corners who can play man. We brought in Aaron Ross, who can play man. All Corey Webster played at LSU was man. We are about a 70 to 80 percent man team. Man, it's fun.''

Madison has been a man-to-man specialist since Jimmy Johnson drafted him 11 years ago for the Miami Dolphins. Man-to-man coverage is something of a lost art because of the proliferation of Cover 2 defenses, which provide help for corners with safeties. And most 3-4 teams prefer zone coverages because of the zone blitzes.

"This is great here because I'm doing the stuff I did in Miami,'' Madison said. "It's fun.''

It's pretty apparent Spagnuolo learned Jim Johnson's schemes in Philadelphia well. In Philadelphia, Johnson, whom Spagnuolo worked under for eight years, is the master of surprise blitzes. In the early days in Philly, he used to match Troy Vincent, Bobby Taylor and Al Harris in man coverages against opponents. Now, he uses Lito Sheppard and Sheldon Brown. Using man-to-man frees an extra defender to either help stop the run or blitz.

The key is keeping offenses guessing and being aggressive. Giants corners are thrilled with the concepts.

"At LSU, Nick Saban ran a pro-style system with a lot of bump-and-run man,'' Webster said. "It was crazy with all the bump-and-run, but it was fun. It made the transition easy to the NFL."

What also helped was having Madison and McQuarters, who both have more than a decade of coverage experience in the NFL.

"They taught us to prepare like you're a starter even when you aren't starting," Webster said.

Including the playoffs, Madison has started 16 games, Ross 11, Webster five, Dockery four and McQuarters one, but each of the five cornerbacks is prepared for anything. At one point in the NFC Championship Game, Madison was benched, Webster was being treated for a tight muscle and Dockery was out. McQuarters had to line up in man coverage at the age of 31.

Normally, defenses that play 70 to 80 percent man coverage rank near the top of the league in defensive penalties. For instance, the Packers are primarily a man team and they led the league with 12 interference and eight illegal contact penalties during the regular season. But the Giants play the scheme with control; they were near the bottom of the league with only five combined penalties.

By spreading the playing time to five cornerbacks, none of the Giants' corners has been abused. Madison, despite being 33, was beaten for only one touchdown this season. Webster was beaten for only 11 completions during the regular season, but he only started three games. Ross had nine regular-season starts and was beaten for seven touchdown passes, but he improved as the season progressed.

"Lining up in so much man is one of the reasons I have been so successful,'' Madison said.

To a man, they are a happy group.

John Clayton, a member of the Pro Football Hall of Fame writers' wing, is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

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Re: Super Rivalry: Beantown Vs. Big Apple

Post  RedMagma on Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:00 pm

The sox played the game well. They forced the yankees into offering their prized pitching prospect when initially they had no intention of doing so. If they pulled out and the Yankees move Hughes and Melky for Johan, they have to consider this a long term win.

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Re: Super Rivalry: Beantown Vs. Big Apple

Post  RedMagma on Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:53 pm

Road for The Yankees making the playoffs as Wilcard and upcoming season just got tougher



Bedard to M's? Deal is done

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=3449

Adam Jones is flying to Baltimore for a physical on Monday, suggesting the Orioles and Mariners have agreed to an Erik Bedard trade.
Jones said he's been told the deal is done, though he doesn't know who is going with him to Baltimore. Asked by the Seattle Times tonight, George Sherrill said he had heard nothing to suggest he's being included. Top prospects Chris Tillman, Jeff Clement, Carlos Triunfel and Wladimir Balentien are among the players whose names have come up in rumors.

Source: Seattle Times

http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mariners/2008/01/bedardjones_deal_going_down.html

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Re: Super Rivalry: Beantown Vs. Big Apple

Post  RedMagma on Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:51 pm

Road for The Yankees making the AL playoffs as Wilcard and upcoming season just got tougher



Bedard to M's? Deal is done

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=MLB&id=3449

Adam Jones is flying to Baltimore for a physical on Monday, suggesting the Orioles and Mariners have agreed to an Erik Bedard trade.
Jones said he's been told the deal is done, though he doesn't know who is going with him to Baltimore. Asked by the Seattle Times tonight, George Sherrill said he had heard nothing to suggest he's being included. Top prospects Chris Tillman, Jeff Clement, Carlos Triunfel and Wladimir Balentien are among the players whose names have come up in rumors.

Source: Seattle Times

http://blog.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mariners/2008/01/bedardjones_deal_going_down.html

The Yankees now have to compete with Tigers , BlueJays, and now Mariners as they improve themselves dramatically for that last Wildcard spot and along with Boston Redsox competing against them in AL east. What are your thoughts?

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Re: Super Rivalry: Beantown Vs. Big Apple

Post  RedMagma on Sun Jan 27, 2008 6:56 pm

Yanks' new Boss will be patient — for awhile
'If we miss the playoffs, I don’t know how patient I’ll be,' Steinbrenner says

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22855393/


TAMPA, Fla. - Hank Steinbrenner sat behind his desk and looked out at empty Legends Field, where all was quiet and calm.

Over and over again, he emphasized his philosophy — the New York Yankees’ new doctrine — of tolerance, of deliberation, of long-term planning. That, however, only goes so far.

He is, after all, a Steinbrenner



“I will be patient with the young pitchers and players. There’s no question about that because I know how these players develop,” he said. “But as far as missing the playoffs — if we miss the playoffs by the end of this year, I don’t know how patient I’ll be. But it won’t be against the players. It won’t be a matter of that. It will be a matter of maybe certain people in the organization could have done something else.”

Spring training was three weeks away, and the first warning had been issued.

Meet the new boss. Not exactly the same as the old boss, but still a lot alike.

Since October’s first-round loss to Cleveland, George Steinbrenner has stepped aside and turned management of baseball’s most-storied team over to his two sons — 50-year-old Hank and 39-year-old Hal.

George Steinbrenner, now 77, does show up at the office most days, hungry for World Series title No. 27. His health appeared to deteriorate after he collapsed in December 2003 during a memorial service for football great Otto Graham in Sarasota, Fla., and again in October 2006 while watching his granddaughter perform in a play at Chapel Hill, N.C.

He hardly spoke in public the last two seasons, preferring to issue grandiose statements through his spokesman.

“I got to spend a lot more time with him than the other kids. It’s been tough for all of us, though,” Hank Steinbrenner said. “As a father he was great, as a boss he was ...”

He paused and started to chuckle.

“Everybody knows how he was as a boss.”

The standard for hyperactive, hyperventilating, hyper just about everything. No detail was too small to get involved in. No word was left unsaid.

Fire this guy! Trade that guy! Blast this one in the tabloids!

Steinbrenner grew up watching the show. He even traveled with the team for parts of the 1985 and 1986 seasons, learning under Lou Piniella, Woody Woodward and Clyde King, before getting out of baseball and concentrating on Kinsman Farm, the Steinbrenner thoroughbred stable in Ocala.

His dad repeatedly tried to lure him back to the Yankees, saying it was time to “let the young elephants into the tent.”

Steinbrenner, like most people, didn’t believe it.

“He just couldn’t do it,” he said. “It didn’t matter to me. I was doing other stuff at the time. This is something that was just a necessity now.

“We’re keepers of the flame, I guess,” he concluded.

Steinbrenner has a spacious office on the third-base side of Legends Field, an autographed 1978 World Series ball next to a family photo on his desk, a poster of Babe Ruth on one wall and an Alex Rodriguez commemorative 500th home run bat mounted behind him. A miniature drag racer — he drives — is on the front of the desk, and a Fender Stratocaster guitar is on the floor near the door. He can walk out to a terrace every once in a while to catch a smoke.

Wearing a light blue polo shirt and navy blazer — not his father’s ever-present white turtleneck — Steinbrenner spoke for two hours Thursday about his plans and goals for a team that figures to be different this year with Joe Girardi replacing Joe Torre as manager after seven seasons without a World Series title.

Steinbrenner has become more the voice of the Yankees than Bob Sheppard, speaking out on possible trades and signings, ruminating each week on the status of talks to acquire Johan Santana from the Minnesota Twins.

“I don’t particularly necessarily enjoy it. It was kind of thrust upon me. At some point, if you’re going to be a leader, you’ve got to step up and you can’t hide in the office,” he said. “Unless it can directly affect negotiations, the fans do deserve to know what’s going on. There’s no problem with that. Whether other people have a problem with that, I really don’t give a damn. They don’t buy the tickets, all right?”


Brian Cashman, the general manager since late 1997, prefers not to comment on moves until they are finalized. Steinbrenner realizes that.

“There’s a famous line from the movie ’Patton’ where Patton has gotten himself in trouble again by saying something to the press. And he told his aide, his captain, ’The next time I start to do something like that stop me,”’ Steinbrenner said. “Then the guy says, ’Well, I’ll give you a gentle nudge.’ And he says, ’No, you give me a swift kick in the ass.’ So I told Brian that one time.”

Sure sounds like his father there.

“Hal is more reserved than George,” said Howard Rubenstein, the longtime family and Yankees spokesman. “Hank is really a pretty accurate reflection. When I first saw the pictures in the paper, I had to do a double take.”

Like his father, Hank Steinbrenner will defend the Yankees against other teams envious of their winning and wealth. He was angered after the release of the Mitchell Report, which implicated 20 present and former Yankees in the use of steroids and human growth hormone. Some questioned whether the Yankees’ run of four World Series titles in five years from 1996-2000 was drug-fueled.

“Don’t make any mistake about it: Our team in the late 90s beat everybody, and we beat everybody because we were that much better than everybody,” he said. “And they had just as many players doing stuff — all the teams. I guarantee you go through every team in baseball, and they all have the same basic percentage of players doing stuff. They just weren’t as good as us. You think the Red Sox didn’t have players doing stuff back then? Give me a ... break. They just weren’t as good as us, and neither was anybody else.”

Although his father was an assistant college football coach, Steinbrenner’s background is more soccer — he played at Central Methodist and coached at Ocala Vanguard High.

In the early 1990s, the Yankees were approached to buy a 33 percent interest in England’s Tottenham Hotspur for about $32 million. New York passed, a decision Hank regrets.

He’d be interested in purchasing Tottenham or maybe Nottingham Forest — for the right price. He has no desire to add an NFL, NBA or NHL team to the Steinbrenner family holdings.

“The only thing would be a soccer team, a major soccer team in Europe, probably at this point preferably in the Premier League. That’s always a possibility for me,” he said. “We’ll just have to see what happens.”

Soccer passion aside, Steinbrenner admits there’s a lot of his father in him. He went to Culver Military Academy in Indiana, a school four generations of Steinbrenners have attended. He loved history, just as his father and grandfather did, thought growing up that he’d want to be a senator, and mentions his admiration for Jefferson, Lincoln and Kennedy.

“If I didn’t get my schoolwork done I’d be in study hall, but I’d be reading Churchill’s memoirs or I’d be reading the racing form,” he said. “You know — sneaking.”

He was 15 when his father led a group that bought the Yankees from CBS in 1973 for a net price of $8.7 million. Now, it’s a business that took in $415 million last year.

His title is senior vice president of the Yankees, while brother Hal is chairman of Yankee Global Enterprises, the holding company for the franchise and its approximately 35 percent stake in the YES Network. The duo will wind up as the team’s two general partners, according to Hank Steinbrenner, who is leaving the titles up to the lawyers.

In the current structure, team president Randy Levine and chief operating officer Lonn Trost report to the brothers, with frequent conference calls. When player decisions are involved, Cashman joins in. George Steinbrenner is the elder counselor.

“Their strengths complement each other, and the philosophy and commitment that their father established and continues to advocate has not changed,” Levine said. “No three people are identical. They all have their individual traits and qualities. George Steinbrenner is a historical figure, and I think with a little more experience, they can be everything their dad is.”

Rubenstein has noticed a difference in the way decisions have been made. For years, Rubenstein would have to talk George Steinbrenner out of impetuous decisions and statements. The brothers don’t adhere to their father’s speak first, then think method.

“George was George. There was only King George,” Rubenstein said. “Now there’s a lot of discussion back and forth. I see there’s a real consensus there.”

After days of deliberation last October, the group decided to offer Torre a contract to return for a 13th season as manager — with a paycut. When Torre rejected it, terming it “an insult,” Hank Steinbrenner fired back and told the New York Post: “Where was Joe’s career in ’95 when my dad hired him?”

“I just, you know, lost my cool and probably said some things I shouldn’t have said. But they were valid points. It’s reality. But the bottom line is it was stupid,” he said, looking back. “I don’t want to criticize Joe. He was obviously an extremely effective manager for us. He was perfect for that team at that time.”

On Cashman’s recommendation, the team hired Girardi over fan favorite Don Mattingly, captain of those 1980s teams that always fell short.

Girardi’s Yankees will be different than Torre’s. Steinbrenner specifically mentions he will be excellent with his handling of young pitchers such as Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain and Ian Kennedy.

“I think he’s got a little bit of fire to him,” Steinbrenner said. “Hopefully a good cross between Billy Martin and Joe Torre, like right in the middle there somewhere.”

It’s clear Steinbrenner is a great admirer of Martin, the manager his father hired and got rid of five times from 1975-88. He wishes he would have had more time to speak with Martin, who died in a Christmas car crash in 1989.

He was impressed with Martin’s knowledge of rules and strategy, and with his love of the pinstripes, calling him “the Bobby Knight of baseball.”

“Billy, he could have had an ’NY’ branded on his forehead and he wouldn’t have minded. There was nobody that loved the Yankees more than Billy did or as much.”

He’s also a great admirer of A-Rod, saying he will be a leader of the Yankees in the next few years along with team captain Derek Jeter.

Still, if he had one player to send to the plate with the season on the line, it wouldn’t be Jeter. It wouldn’t be A-Rod. It wouldn’t even be Mr. October himself, Reggie Jackson.

Steinbrenner would send up Mattingly.

“I’m no super scout or super expert, but he’s the greatest clutch hitter I’ve ever seen since we’ve owned the team, anywhere in baseball,” Steinbrenner said. “Reggie was more just strictly home runs, though. A lot of strikeouts as well. I’m not so sure seventh game of the World Series, bottom of the ninth, if I wouldn’t want Mattingly up there ahead of anybody else. The only other two would be Reggie and Brett, George Brett. But as far as getting any kind of hit necessary, Mattingly would be your guy.”

Steinbrenner plans to be in New York a lot during the regular season. He’ll stay at the Regency Hotel on Park Avenue, just like his father. He’ll use his dad’s office at Yankee Stadium.

And George Steinbrenner remains involved. Hank Steinbrenner said the job of consigliere suits him well.

“He’s here every day usually. He’ll take his time coming in, but he’s here every day. He’ll read his mail. He’ll read the clippings. Then I’ll go in, and we’ll talk quite a bit about certain things,” Hank said. “I don’t want to get into what. Obviously, Santana is one.”

He’s uncertain how far to go for Santana. But he’s content to head into the 2008 season going with the kids. Chamberlain might start the season as a setup man before moving into the rotation, but that’s up to Girardi.

“There’s no pressure from me. I don’t care if Chamberlain or Hughes or Kennedy have four bad starts in a row,” Steinbrenner said. “A lot of the fans seem to want to keep all our young pitchers, and that’s great. I think that’s fantastic. But they’ve got to remember that later on if these guys go through growing pains, don’t turn against them all of a sudden.”

Wait though. Even with that, there is the bottom line.

“You’ve got to win,” he said. “Otherwise, there’s no reason being in it.”
© 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

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Re: Super Rivalry: Beantown Vs. Big Apple

Post  RedMagma on Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:10 pm

First, the only level I am a supporter of any of the Sox trade proposals is if it is an alternative to the Yankees getting him cheap. If the Yankees had to use Hughes, Cabrera & Kennedy, I believe the loss of a Kennedy to a thin starting staff (Chamberlain innings problem and Musina aging) and more importantly to a weak bullpen and the loss of Cabrera to an aging outfield is about equal to the gain of Santana over Hughes. To me, that is the level at which Santana to the Yankees is an on field break even for the Yankees. The $20+m (coupled with the 40% luxury tax) is a huge cost for even the Yankees and will tie their hands for a long time to come. I'd be happy if the Yankees did that.

That being said, I much prefer the Lester package than the Ellsbury package. It's not so much that I think that Ellsbury is worth more than Lester, it's that the Ellsbury package basically puts Lester and Buchholz in the minors and I think is more of a loss to the on field Sox than the Lester package. We have a lot more prospective alternatives near ready for Lester than we do for Ellsbury.

If Ellsbury is in the package, the Sox would be crazy to also have Kalish in the package. Kalish projects as an excellent CF when Crisps's contract runs out. As OCD SS pointed out, I also interpreted Kalish's name as an example in the article. I also agree that the added player should be a lower tier player as a throw in. Carter seems like the best fit for both teams.


What would people think of a deal where the price for Santana was Ellsbury and Lester, and nobody else? I'm not proposing it or saying it would happen that way -- I'm just asking if the consensus would be that giving two of the top 3 would be too much, even if no one else were involved. One other comment I'd make: is anyone else concerned about the 72-hour window for signing Santana, should a deal be agreed to? Doing the due diligence on this one, including a DETAILED physical and results on Santana, while working out what could be a pretty complex deal, might really be pushing the envelope.

I read Kalish's name in that report not as the Twins trying to get him, but are just using a name that has already come up to explain to the more common fan that the players they've never heard of on the back end might wind up being pretty important down the line ( the reference was to him being a "throw in" the same way Liriano was a "throw in" in the AJP trade).

If Olney is right and Lester is off the table (or if fogey's scenario plays out and the Twins must have Ellsbury in the deal, which is a brilliant bit of analysis that deserves a tip of the cap) then I still would not be willing to include Kalish. The next player should be someone in the sub-top 10 range, like Moss, Bates, Johnson, Carter, or Richardson

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Re: Super Rivalry: Beantown Vs. Big Apple

Post  RedMagma on Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:12 pm

From the Charley Walters article that was cited above:

"But one minor leaguer who some would consider a throw-in by Boston - left-handed hitting outfielder Ryan Kalish - could become an important part of a deal. "

The first time that I have seen Kalish's name mentioned in these talks.

Forever Red 9 wrote: Olney's blog today is full of gems from Hank:
On why the 1996-2001 dynasty shouldn't be called into question as a result of steroids -

"You think the Red Sox didn't have players doing stuff back then? Give me a break. They just weren't as good as us, and neither was anybody else."

There goes Hank's chances to join the diplomatic corps...


I found this line from Olney's blog to be especially interesting


Heard from a couple of sources that Boston has taken Jon Lester off the table, for good, in the Santana trade discussions.

If that is the case, and they are still serious players for Johan, then it means that the Ellsbury centered package is at the forefront of discussions. If that deal is made that would leave the Red Sox with seven starters searching for innings in 2008. Obviously insurance is important, but can you afford to send Lester or Buchholz to AAA for an indeterminate amount of time, or take Wakefield out of the rotation entirely? It seems as though they are very high on Lester this winter, or maybe its all smoke, but I'd feel much more comfortable giving up Lester and retaining our lead-off man of the future in a deal for Santana.

Hopefully the Charley Walter's article is right and this deal will be made, one way or another, in the next 10 days.


Let's remember that the Twins' objective from the start has been to get two of the Sox's big 3 prospects in return for Santana. The translation of Olney could be as simple as the Twins saying that they had to have Ellsbury, and the Sox saying in return "well, then Lester is off limits." In other words, this could be the final setting of parameters for a deal, if indeed there is to be a Santana-to-the-Sox deal in the near future. But just because Lester is off the table in the Santana trade discussions doesn't mean he is off the table for good in all discussions. Could it be that the Sox would then use Lester as a piece to upgrade CF or get a viable catcher somewhere?

What would people think of a deal where the price for Santana was Ellsbury and Lester, and nobody else? I'm not proposing it or saying it would happen that way -- I'm just asking if the consensus would be that giving two of the top 3 would be too much, even if no one else were involved. One other comment I'd make: is anyone else concerned about the 72-hour window for signing Santana, should a deal be agreed to? Doing the due diligence on this one, including a DETAILED physical and results on Santana, while working out what could be a pretty complex deal, might really be pushing the envelope.


First, the only level I am a supporter of any of the Sox trade proposals is if it is an alternative to the Yankees getting him cheap. If the Yankees had to use Hughes, Cabrera & Kennedy, I believe the loss of a Kennedy to a thin starting staff (Chamberlain innings problem and Musina aging) and more importantly to a weak bullpen and the loss of Cabrera to an aging outfield is about equal to the gain of Santana over Hughes. To me, that is the level at which Santana to the Yankees is an on field break even for the Yankees. The $20+m (coupled with the 40% luxury tax) is a huge cost for even the Yankees and will tie their hands for a long time to come. I'd be happy if the Yankees did that.

That being said, I much prefer the Lester package than the Ellsbury package. It's not so much that I think that Ellsbury is worth more than Lester, it's that the Ellsbury package basically puts Lester and Buchholz in the minors and I think is more of a loss to the on field Sox than the Lester package. We have a lot more prospective alternatives near ready for Lester than we do for Ellsbury.

If Ellsbury is in the package, the Sox would be crazy to also have Kalish in the package. Kalish projects as an excellent CF when Crisps's contract runs out. As OCD SS pointed out, I also interpreted Kalish's name as an example in the article. I also agree that the added player should be a lower tier player as a throw in. Carter seems like the best fit for both teams.

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Re: Super Rivalry: Beantown Vs. Big Apple

Post  RedMagma on Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:17 pm

I would take Beckett over Bedard.

Despite Yankee fans' odd tendencies to knock anyone that is an ace for Boston. I laugh at SOME Yankee posters that have acted like Beckett had his one good year.

He's Josh Beckett, he'll have more.

I would take Felix's talent over Matsuzaka's.

But, if anyone is doubting Matsuzaka can really improve in '08... then they are a Yankee fan.

Or that idiot poster "Ver".

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